Yesterday, Israel launched an attack into Syria hitting a target they alleged was a terrorist training camp. This is the deepest attack into Syria, 20km from Damascus, in thirty years.
The attack was in retaliation for a suicide bomb attack on the eve of Yom Kippur in a restuarant that killed 19 people including 3 generation of one family as well as four children and several arabs.
Syria immediatelyu called for a UN security councel meeting to discuss the attack. All nations condemned the attack except for the US, which was half expected.
This kind of an attack is a clear sign of the New World Policy of Aggression set by the US. Israel claimed self defense just like the US claimed it when invading Iraq. It was also done in the name of terror; a sovereign nation was attacked under the banner of anti-terror which apparently legitimizes the attack.
IS this where we are headed? No more diplomacy? Just traight into an attack?
This is not a good thing.
Syria asks UN to condemn Israel
In UN Debate on Israeli Raid, U.S. Focuses on Syria
Syria seeks condemnation of Israeli airstrike
Hamas vows retaliation against Israel
The history of Syria's relation with Israel after 1967
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Full Version: Israel Attacks Inside Syria
This is terrible news i must say, but this time i would be on Israel.
Many years ago, there was a war, between Israel to Syria nad Eygpt, in this war, My own dad was a commander, many people died in this war, and even now, Syria dares to attack us??
i think Israel was doing the right thing fighting back, Israel can always, always, use all their power, which i great, to defeat Syria, but Israel also had a mind, and wants to finish this war, i wish the other side would think the same.
Many years ago, there was a war, between Israel to Syria nad Eygpt, in this war, My own dad was a commander, many people died in this war, and even now, Syria dares to attack us??
i think Israel was doing the right thing fighting back, Israel can always, always, use all their power, which i great, to defeat Syria, but Israel also had a mind, and wants to finish this war, i wish the other side would think the same.
9 September: 15 killed in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv
19 August: 23 killed in Jerusalem
11 June: 17 killed in Jerusalem
18 May: 7 killed in Jerusalem
5 March: 17 killed in Haifa
Look at those numbers on people that just went to it, took a bus to school, went to see a movie in some mall, when will this ever end???
19 August: 23 killed in Jerusalem
11 June: 17 killed in Jerusalem
18 May: 7 killed in Jerusalem
5 March: 17 killed in Haifa
Look at those numbers on people that just went to it, took a bus to school, went to see a movie in some mall, when will this ever end???
I am no way trying to down play the death of any Israeli. Its not acceptable at all and I wish it would stop.
The war you speak of, coincdently, was the Yom Kippur War.
The point that is noted is that this was an attack into another country and justified under the Anti-Terror banner. There is no doubt that Israel is using the prescedent that has been set by the US in dealign with alleged terrorist states.
It hasbecome too easy to invade/attack another nation. Diplomacy has taken the back seat.
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The war you speak of, coincdently, was the Yom Kippur War.
The point that is noted is that this was an attack into another country and justified under the Anti-Terror banner. There is no doubt that Israel is using the prescedent that has been set by the US in dealign with alleged terrorist states.
It hasbecome too easy to invade/attack another nation. Diplomacy has taken the back seat.
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What im saying is, if Israel was acting like the others, they would all be dead by now, since Israel has one of the greatest defence army in technology and men.
If Israel was acting like what others?
Greatest defense (or is that offence) yet they have the humanist and diplomatic skills of a mentally challenged gerbil!
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Greatest defense (or is that offence) yet they have the humanist and diplomatic skills of a mentally challenged gerbil!
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I just heard the president/thain/ruler whatever of Syria on the radio...
Doesn't sound too pissed off actually. Sounds more non-chalant to be honest...
Said Syria will draft a somethign or other calling for something just as arbitrary...
And as for Diplomacy, I suppose it takes differnt forms. I mean as frodo said, at least they are trying. If they just wanted to slaughter everyone there they could. The fact that they aren't at least shows 'some' willingness for a peaceful resolution, which i hope will be reached however unlikely
Doesn't sound too pissed off actually. Sounds more non-chalant to be honest...
Said Syria will draft a somethign or other calling for something just as arbitrary...
And as for Diplomacy, I suppose it takes differnt forms. I mean as frodo said, at least they are trying. If they just wanted to slaughter everyone there they could. The fact that they aren't at least shows 'some' willingness for a peaceful resolution, which i hope will be reached however unlikely
They didn't even attempt diplomacy. Israel has the fire power, but they know that of they did slaughter innocents in masses they would be no different than their oppresors 50 years ago.
Syria has done the right thing. The have gone to the UN and are doing things the right way. But if anyone thinks the UN will have any effect on the action of Israel, they must be cranked!
Their largest supporter/ally does not listen to the UN, so why should they?
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Syria has done the right thing. The have gone to the UN and are doing things the right way. But if anyone thinks the UN will have any effect on the action of Israel, they must be cranked!
Their largest supporter/ally does not listen to the UN, so why should they?
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Diplomacy will NEVER work in this war. You have to understand the religious issues that motivate both parties. Islam will never stop fighting in their quest for Dar-al-Islam. And the Zionist Jews believe that God gave them (in the line of Abraham-Isaac-Jacob) the land as part of an everlasting covenant. This is not something to be settled by diplomacy. The Bible contains much prophecy on this. It's a war that started with Isaac and Ishmael and will not end until Jesus returns. Religion is at the heart of this Middle-East problem and no religious differences are settled by diplomacy.
Bollox. A truce can be reached. Religious fundamentalism is an effect not the cause of the conflict!
Sharon is a rightwinger with his own zionist agenda. He has yet to stop the settlers moving into Palestinian land, he is building the wall that goes into palestinian land, he has yet to enforce any cease fire when one is agreed upon.
Arafat is old and unable to lead appropriately, getting rid of Mazen was a big mistake.
Both leaders are equally to blame for the issues in the area.
This is a land issue and an issue that can be sorted rationally and politically.
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Sharon is a rightwinger with his own zionist agenda. He has yet to stop the settlers moving into Palestinian land, he is building the wall that goes into palestinian land, he has yet to enforce any cease fire when one is agreed upon.
Arafat is old and unable to lead appropriately, getting rid of Mazen was a big mistake.
Both leaders are equally to blame for the issues in the area.
This is a land issue and an issue that can be sorted rationally and politically.
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QUOTE(frodo @ Oct 6 2003, 10:24 AM)
...but Israel also had a mind, and wants to finish this war, i wish the other side would think the same.
Bull... fucking... shit. That is complete horse-bollocks, Frodo.
This war will end when Israel does one of two things:
1. Stops the illegal, immoral and inflammatory invasion and colonisation of land that DOES NOT BELONG TO THEM!
or
2. They stop pretending that they're even try to do the right thing, acknowledge that they're being racist and illegal and hold all the Arab people in concentration camps like animals so they can't do anything to harm the mighty Israel.
There are definitely Israelis that sincerely do want an end to it. Of that I have no doubt. Every so often a couple if Israeli soldiers' consciences catch up with them and they refuse to participate in attacks on Palestine any longer. But the Israeli government is a racist, criminal one.
proze i aint trying to start a flame war but do u even know why this war started? the palesitinian were given a land long time ago, a land that was theirs and there was no fight about it.
3 years ago, they started "invading" the Israeli territory and since then they are trying to get more land that DOES NOT belong to the Palsetinian.
i admit, Arial Sharon is a guy that has no brain in my opinion, but Israel tries harder, not good enough maybe, but tries harder then the palestinians to end this war with less death.
Yes Israel do kill people, but MOST of the times, not all, its from self defence.
At least we dont send our 15yrs old kids to blew up a bus full of students on the way to school, now how fucking sick is that hey????
3 years ago, they started "invading" the Israeli territory and since then they are trying to get more land that DOES NOT belong to the Palsetinian.
i admit, Arial Sharon is a guy that has no brain in my opinion, but Israel tries harder, not good enough maybe, but tries harder then the palestinians to end this war with less death.
Yes Israel do kill people, but MOST of the times, not all, its from self defence.
At least we dont send our 15yrs old kids to blew up a bus full of students on the way to school, now how fucking sick is that hey????
You have it so wrong, Frodo. What started three years ago was the Intifada, which did not start the way you just described it.
Once again, this thread was not meant to head off into the old debate of Israel/Palestine, I was more highlighting the way in which the US policy has now rubbed off on their ally.
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QUOTE
The current crisis was ignited on September 28, when Israel's Likud Party leader, Ariel Sharon, visited Haram al-Sharifa or the Temple Mount, a Jerusalem site sacred to both Jews and Muslims. Accompanied by hundreds of Israeli riot police... Riots and demonstrations by Palestinians followed Sharon's visit..."
Once again, this thread was not meant to head off into the old debate of Israel/Palestine, I was more highlighting the way in which the US policy has now rubbed off on their ally.
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Bwaaahahaha. I can only assume from your statement that your father was in the Israeli army, that you're an Israeli or of Israeli descent? Either way, your facts are about as accurate as the perception that Israel is the victim here.
Let's begin...
First off, Syria did dick to Israel in this instance, so you should read up a bit before responding. Israel levelled an alleged Hamas training camp in Syria, in retaliation to an Islamic Jihad strike a few days ahead (I'm going to use military terms here, because it's all just killing anyway.). Who exactly gave them the right to sommer bomb a sovereign nation cos they feel like it?
Wtf? Exactly what are you referring to? Pretty much the sole source Palestinian/Arab aggression is the continuing removal of Palestinians from their land and the placement of Israeli settlers there, under the watch of the overly aggressive Israeli military.
No-one sends them. They do it of their own free will. Why? Because they have no hope for anything to get better and see it as their only way out. Chances are their home has been bulldozed or bombed, their father and older brothers imprisoned without trial or charges or some other act of Israeli state terrorism has touched their lives. Suicide attacks are not for fun... they're the final act of a desperate person.
Who broke the last ceasefire? Give you a clue... it wasn't an Arab group. As as for the last statement, look at the death-tolls to figure out who does more killing.
At laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast, something accurate.
Let's begin...
QUOTE
...and even now, Syria dares to attack us??
First off, Syria did dick to Israel in this instance, so you should read up a bit before responding. Israel levelled an alleged Hamas training camp in Syria, in retaliation to an Islamic Jihad strike a few days ahead (I'm going to use military terms here, because it's all just killing anyway.). Who exactly gave them the right to sommer bomb a sovereign nation cos they feel like it?
QUOTE
3 years ago, they started "invading" the Israeli territory and...
Wtf? Exactly what are you referring to? Pretty much the sole source Palestinian/Arab aggression is the continuing removal of Palestinians from their land and the placement of Israeli settlers there, under the watch of the overly aggressive Israeli military.
QUOTE
At least we dont send our 15yrs old kids to blew up...
No-one sends them. They do it of their own free will. Why? Because they have no hope for anything to get better and see it as their only way out. Chances are their home has been bulldozed or bombed, their father and older brothers imprisoned without trial or charges or some other act of Israeli state terrorism has touched their lives. Suicide attacks are not for fun... they're the final act of a desperate person.
QUOTE
but Israel tries harder, not good enough maybe, but tries harder then the palestinians to end this war with less death.
Who broke the last ceasefire? Give you a clue... it wasn't an Arab group. As as for the last statement, look at the death-tolls to figure out who does more killing.
QUOTE
Arial Sharon is a guy that has no brain
At laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast, something accurate.
k proze, u are right on some points yes.
First, they send their own people to dress like us and be kind of undercover and soon as they told they blew themselvs up, trust me on this one, i HAVE been there.
im outta of this topic now, this is becoming stupid, yes i might not know all stuff, i am young, u are older then me and i guess u know much more then me, but one thing is for sure, i have been there, i have seen what happend, i know what it is like to live in a place where every day u too scared to even leave the house to go watch a movie or something, i know what it is when i cant take the bus to school anymore and have to walk the whole way.
I am not a diplomacy guy so i wont be able to say what i feel and still make it look right, but remember this, i HAVE been there
END
Cheers
Frodo
First, they send their own people to dress like us and be kind of undercover and soon as they told they blew themselvs up, trust me on this one, i HAVE been there.
im outta of this topic now, this is becoming stupid, yes i might not know all stuff, i am young, u are older then me and i guess u know much more then me, but one thing is for sure, i have been there, i have seen what happend, i know what it is like to live in a place where every day u too scared to even leave the house to go watch a movie or something, i know what it is when i cant take the bus to school anymore and have to walk the whole way.
I am not a diplomacy guy so i wont be able to say what i feel and still make it look right, but remember this, i HAVE been there
END
Cheers
Frodo
Frodo, I can understand where you are coming from and can believe that it must be stressful living there. But that argument does not carry far, especially in this age of info. Any body with time can read about whats happening there.
You also try to make it seem as though you are the poor Israeli, life is tough in a ploy, I assume, to shift the moral argument.
Try to consider the conditios that the Palestinian people are living, the harassment, the check points, the humiliation, poverty and desperation. Then ask yourself, how would you react living under oppressive rule like that?
Both sides need to work for peace!
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You also try to make it seem as though you are the poor Israeli, life is tough in a ploy, I assume, to shift the moral argument.
Try to consider the conditios that the Palestinian people are living, the harassment, the check points, the humiliation, poverty and desperation. Then ask yourself, how would you react living under oppressive rule like that?
Both sides need to work for peace!
END!
You are right driver, and i got no words to say about it.
All u have to do, is live the way things are heppening, u know go with the flow, we saw things arent getting better in Israel, so we made our choice, and moved here.
Thats all i can say, all u have to do is watch yourself, try to make the most of ur life, coz u cant change the way things are, u can just hope it will become better, and i do hope.
All u have to do, is live the way things are heppening, u know go with the flow, we saw things arent getting better in Israel, so we made our choice, and moved here.
Thats all i can say, all u have to do is watch yourself, try to make the most of ur life, coz u cant change the way things are, u can just hope it will become better, and i do hope.
QUOTE(frodo @ Oct 6 2003, 01:50 PM)
coz u cant change the way things are, u can just hope it will become better, and i do hope.
Peace Now!
Youth Activism Promoting Coexistence in Palestine and Israel
You have a voice. Use it!
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QUOTE(Driver @ Oct 6 2003, 12:18 PM)
Bollox. A truce can be reached. Religious fundamentalism is an effect not the cause of the conflict!
You are só wrong Driver. Religion IS the cause - and has been for thousands of years. This is not a new conflict but wars between Jews and others in this area are as old as the story of Abraham. Why do you think Christian Fundamentalists in the US back Israel (and Bush) - a major source of frustration and hate amongst Arab nations? All efforts for true peace will fail no matter who's in power where.
Those of us who believe in the Bible and Biblical Prophecy believe the only time of true peace will come once Jesus Christ returns. Before then Antichrist will create a false "peace" between Jew and Arab that will only last 3.5 years. Those who do not believe the Bible (like yourself Driver) do believe true peace to be possible through negotiations, and, and, and ...
Replacing Sharon and his Lukid party will solve nothing. Replacing Bush will solve nothing. Giving more land to the Palestinians will solve nothing. Many (maybe the majority) of Jews and Palestinians want peace, but fundamental religious beliefs will never allow that - and these strong beliefs are not fruit - but the roots.
QUOTE(Giz @ Oct 6 2003, 02:01 PM)
do believe true peace to be possible through negotiations, and, and, and ...
Its more rational than a silver cloud coming from the sky...
To reply... This person puts it well.
QUOTE
Islam is a way of life. It has teachings that organize people's life in all aspects, political, economic, legal, family, etc. Religion should be understood as a whole. You cannot judge it by selecting bits and pieces that suit your argument. What we have today is not a contest between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. The conflict is about land and resources. Israel occupies Palestinian and Arab territories, that is why there is resistance. It is not a war between Islam and Judaism. The United States is involved in war with many Arab and Muslim countries because it has sided with Israel and is attempting to control Middle Eastern oil. Other nations, Christians or otherwise, are not involved in the conflict. They are being coerced to do so by US-Israeli pressures
Once again, religious fundamentalism is an effect not the cause. Religion plays a role in strengthening beliefs, but at the heart of the issue, it comes down to land.
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Well this is sort of expected, The US made no secret of the fact that Syria is next on their list of countries to invade but with the things happening in Iraq there was no way in hell anybody in the world would have stand for a US invasion on Syria, so this is a nice clever plan of the US to use their close friend Israel to do the first strike, Syria will take revenge and then the uS will have an excuse to rid the world of the bad bad freedom hating people in Syria.
Land, to both Jew and Muslim is a religious issue. Why didn't the Jews accept land anywhere in the world? Why don't the Palestinians go live in Jordan (where there is more than enough land for them? Islam states that no land, once occupied by a Muslim, may ever again be occupied by an infadel. This is religion. In the Middle-East, land and faith goes together and cannot be seperated. Land is a religious expression.
US Gave Israel Greenlight for Attack
Raid on Syria is a Lethal Step Towards War
By ROBERT FISK
Israel received the Green Light. It came from what is called the Syria Accountability Act, moving through the United States Congress with the help of Israel's supporters, that will impose sanctions on Damascus for its supposed enthusiasm for "terrorism" and occupation of Lebanon.
Speaker after speaker in the past week has been warning that Syria is the new--or old, or non-existent--threat previously represented by Iraq: that it has weapons of mass destruction, that it has biological warheads, that it received Iraq's non-existent weapons of mass destruction just before we began our illegal invasion of Iraq in March.
The Israeli lie about "thousands" of Iranian Revolutionary Guards in the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon has been uncloaked yet again. In reality, there hasn't been an Iranian militant in Lebanon for 20 years. But who cares? The dictatorial Syrian regime--and dictatorial it most decidedly is--has to be struck after a Jenin woman lawyer, who has probably never visited Damascus in her life, blows herself and 19 innocent Israelis up in Haifa.
And why not? If America can strike Afghanistan for the international crimes against humanity of 11 September 2001, when 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis, and if America can invade Iraq, which had absolutely nothing to do with 11 September, why shouldn't Israel strike Syria?
Yes, Syria does support Hamas and Islamic Jihad. But in Iraq is based the Mujahideen Khalq, which bombs Iran, and the Americans have not bombed them. In Jerusalem exists a government that openly threatens the life of Yasser Arafat but no one suggests action should be taken against the Israeli administration.
In Jerusalem lives a prime minister, Ariel Sharon, who was adjudicated to be "personally responsible" by Israel's own Kahane commission of enquiry for the massacre of up to 1,700 Palestinian civilians at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Beirut in 1982. But he is not going on trial for war crimes.
Of course, Syria is going to take the air strikes on the 'training base" of Islamic Jihad to the United Nations. Much good will it do Damascus. When the United States cannot bring itself to support a resolution condemning Israel's threat to murder Arafat, when it will not stop the Israelis building 600 more houses--for Jews and Jews only--on Palestinian land, air raids on Syria simply don't matter.
Perhaps Lebanon will benefit. Perhaps Lebanon can now be spared Israel's retaliation for Palestinian violence--unless, of course, Israel decides to strike a Palestinian "training base" in Lebanon.
No one asks what these "training bases" are. Do Palestinian suicide bombers really need to practice suicide bombing? Does turning a switch need that much training? Surely the death of a brother or a cousin by the Israeli army is all the practice that is needed.
But no. Yesterday, we took another little lethal step along the road to Middle East war, establishing facts on the ground, proving that it's permissible to bomb the territory of Syria in the "war against terror", which President Bush has himself declared now includes Gaza.
And the precedents are there if we need them. Back in 1983, when President Reagan thought he was fighting a "war on terror" in the Middle East, he ordered his air force to bomb the Syrian army in the Lebanese Bekaa Valley, losing a pilot and allowing the Syrians to capture his co-pilot, who was only returned after a prolonged and politically embarrassing negotiation by Jesse Jackson. In an era when America is ready to threaten the invasion of Syria and Iran--part of that infamous "axis of evil"--this may seem small beer. But Syria itself has seen what has happened to America's army in Iraq, and is emboldened by its humiliation to avenge the attacks of Israel or America, whatever the cost.
If America cannot control Iraq, why should Syria fear Israel?
======================================================
This strengthens the argument regarding the prescedent that the US has set with regards the use of force and the disregfard of diplomatic solutions.
I really enjoy Robert Fisks writing, he is really good!
END!
Raid on Syria is a Lethal Step Towards War
By ROBERT FISK
Israel received the Green Light. It came from what is called the Syria Accountability Act, moving through the United States Congress with the help of Israel's supporters, that will impose sanctions on Damascus for its supposed enthusiasm for "terrorism" and occupation of Lebanon.
Speaker after speaker in the past week has been warning that Syria is the new--or old, or non-existent--threat previously represented by Iraq: that it has weapons of mass destruction, that it has biological warheads, that it received Iraq's non-existent weapons of mass destruction just before we began our illegal invasion of Iraq in March.
The Israeli lie about "thousands" of Iranian Revolutionary Guards in the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon has been uncloaked yet again. In reality, there hasn't been an Iranian militant in Lebanon for 20 years. But who cares? The dictatorial Syrian regime--and dictatorial it most decidedly is--has to be struck after a Jenin woman lawyer, who has probably never visited Damascus in her life, blows herself and 19 innocent Israelis up in Haifa.
And why not? If America can strike Afghanistan for the international crimes against humanity of 11 September 2001, when 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis, and if America can invade Iraq, which had absolutely nothing to do with 11 September, why shouldn't Israel strike Syria?
Yes, Syria does support Hamas and Islamic Jihad. But in Iraq is based the Mujahideen Khalq, which bombs Iran, and the Americans have not bombed them. In Jerusalem exists a government that openly threatens the life of Yasser Arafat but no one suggests action should be taken against the Israeli administration.
In Jerusalem lives a prime minister, Ariel Sharon, who was adjudicated to be "personally responsible" by Israel's own Kahane commission of enquiry for the massacre of up to 1,700 Palestinian civilians at the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Beirut in 1982. But he is not going on trial for war crimes.
Of course, Syria is going to take the air strikes on the 'training base" of Islamic Jihad to the United Nations. Much good will it do Damascus. When the United States cannot bring itself to support a resolution condemning Israel's threat to murder Arafat, when it will not stop the Israelis building 600 more houses--for Jews and Jews only--on Palestinian land, air raids on Syria simply don't matter.
Perhaps Lebanon will benefit. Perhaps Lebanon can now be spared Israel's retaliation for Palestinian violence--unless, of course, Israel decides to strike a Palestinian "training base" in Lebanon.
No one asks what these "training bases" are. Do Palestinian suicide bombers really need to practice suicide bombing? Does turning a switch need that much training? Surely the death of a brother or a cousin by the Israeli army is all the practice that is needed.
But no. Yesterday, we took another little lethal step along the road to Middle East war, establishing facts on the ground, proving that it's permissible to bomb the territory of Syria in the "war against terror", which President Bush has himself declared now includes Gaza.
And the precedents are there if we need them. Back in 1983, when President Reagan thought he was fighting a "war on terror" in the Middle East, he ordered his air force to bomb the Syrian army in the Lebanese Bekaa Valley, losing a pilot and allowing the Syrians to capture his co-pilot, who was only returned after a prolonged and politically embarrassing negotiation by Jesse Jackson. In an era when America is ready to threaten the invasion of Syria and Iran--part of that infamous "axis of evil"--this may seem small beer. But Syria itself has seen what has happened to America's army in Iraq, and is emboldened by its humiliation to avenge the attacks of Israel or America, whatever the cost.
If America cannot control Iraq, why should Syria fear Israel?
======================================================
This strengthens the argument regarding the prescedent that the US has set with regards the use of force and the disregfard of diplomatic solutions.
I really enjoy Robert Fisks writing, he is really good!
END!
Yes, it is a sad sad thing.
The powerful superpower that everybody thinks is the best thing since sliced bread turned out to be the biggest threat to peace and stability in the world.
The powerful superpower that everybody thinks is the best thing since sliced bread turned out to be the biggest threat to peace and stability in the world.
bah! Just another example showing that holy men should not be alowed to have anything to do with running the country.
And what would YOU have us do? Just sit around with our thumbs up our asses while we wait for Jesus' next big gig? Brainwash everybody to follow Christianity? Try NOT to achieve diplomacy incase its Satans '3.5 year truce?' The problem in the middle-east will be solved by human beings, if we ever get over our own stupid egos and stupid squabbles over the correct spelling of God's name and who his REAL Messaiah was and just realise that we're all fuckin human beings who want the same damn stuff and who chase the same damn dreams.
No divine intervention is gonna come swooping down from the heavans from God, Jesus, Allah, Bhudda, Zeus, or Ronald Mcfuckin Donald, because as you so aptly put it Giz, the problem here is RELIGEON and the folly of the men who follow it blindly. If we wait for some god to fix the middle-east, its gonna end up as one big-assed nuclear wasteland.
QUOTE
Those of us who believe in the Bible and Biblical Prophecy believe the only time of true peace will come once Jesus Christ returns. Before then Antichrist will create a false "peace" between Jew and Arab that will only last 3.5 years. Those who do not believe the Bible (like yourself Driver) do believe true peace to be possible through negotiations, and, and, and ...
And what would YOU have us do? Just sit around with our thumbs up our asses while we wait for Jesus' next big gig? Brainwash everybody to follow Christianity? Try NOT to achieve diplomacy incase its Satans '3.5 year truce?' The problem in the middle-east will be solved by human beings, if we ever get over our own stupid egos and stupid squabbles over the correct spelling of God's name and who his REAL Messaiah was and just realise that we're all fuckin human beings who want the same damn stuff and who chase the same damn dreams.
No divine intervention is gonna come swooping down from the heavans from God, Jesus, Allah, Bhudda, Zeus, or Ronald Mcfuckin Donald, because as you so aptly put it Giz, the problem here is RELIGEON and the folly of the men who follow it blindly. If we wait for some god to fix the middle-east, its gonna end up as one big-assed nuclear wasteland.
Oh Hum...
Do you honestly believe that Israel is going to do something to Arafat? Do you think that they are so stupid as to make a very public statement that they are going to get rid of him either by execution or by expulsion? Don't you think they know this was going to draw condemnation from the outside world and rally the palestinians to protect him?
Why the governemnt of Israel decided to make the statement they alone know but think carefully. If they wanted to "remove" arafat they would have done it in secrecy where they don't have to go through thousands of people now guarding his compound, where there would be a bloodbath. I wish people would stop harping on this Israel is going to take out arafat bullshit because if they wanted to as everybody keeps mentioning with their superiour military might (both defensive and offensive) they could do it in a heartbeat.
As for the attack on Syria. Go for it I say. Syria are a known sponsor of terror. It is well known and well documented that they support islamic jihad and hammas. Did they need a green light to attack syria? No, why did they ask for one. Just to be polite I would imagine. Israel does not take orders from anybody except her prime minister. If push says jump Sharon is not going to say how high. Sharon is a general in the IDF and is not going to take orders from old bushy boy.
I put this to whoever is against Israel's defensive attacks/retaliations/strikes. You go live inside of Israel. You go sit in a restaurant and have your legs blown off while eating a pizza only because you are jewish. Yes palestinian civilians get killed which is a shame but if they continue to support a terrorist organisation such as the PLO or PA then they only have themselves to blame. Why follow a group of people who hide out in civilian areas to avoid themselves getting attacked by Israel? Because they know that Israel is going to attack and it's great propaganda to show the world (those who are important aren't fooled by it) that Israel is killing innocent civilians.
There is a big difference between attacking a military target and maybe catching a couple of civilians in the cross fire and out and out attacking a civilian structure (such as a pizza parlor etc...)
Do you honestly believe that Israel is going to do something to Arafat? Do you think that they are so stupid as to make a very public statement that they are going to get rid of him either by execution or by expulsion? Don't you think they know this was going to draw condemnation from the outside world and rally the palestinians to protect him?
Why the governemnt of Israel decided to make the statement they alone know but think carefully. If they wanted to "remove" arafat they would have done it in secrecy where they don't have to go through thousands of people now guarding his compound, where there would be a bloodbath. I wish people would stop harping on this Israel is going to take out arafat bullshit because if they wanted to as everybody keeps mentioning with their superiour military might (both defensive and offensive) they could do it in a heartbeat.
As for the attack on Syria. Go for it I say. Syria are a known sponsor of terror. It is well known and well documented that they support islamic jihad and hammas. Did they need a green light to attack syria? No, why did they ask for one. Just to be polite I would imagine. Israel does not take orders from anybody except her prime minister. If push says jump Sharon is not going to say how high. Sharon is a general in the IDF and is not going to take orders from old bushy boy.
I put this to whoever is against Israel's defensive attacks/retaliations/strikes. You go live inside of Israel. You go sit in a restaurant and have your legs blown off while eating a pizza only because you are jewish. Yes palestinian civilians get killed which is a shame but if they continue to support a terrorist organisation such as the PLO or PA then they only have themselves to blame. Why follow a group of people who hide out in civilian areas to avoid themselves getting attacked by Israel? Because they know that Israel is going to attack and it's great propaganda to show the world (those who are important aren't fooled by it) that Israel is killing innocent civilians.
There is a big difference between attacking a military target and maybe catching a couple of civilians in the cross fire and out and out attacking a civilian structure (such as a pizza parlor etc...)
QUOTE(aCe @ Oct 8 2003, 08:03 AM)
There is a big difference between attacking a military target and maybe catching a couple of civilians in the cross fire and out and out attacking a civilian structure (such as a pizza parlor etc...)
Yes, you are very right. The one is from the safety and distance of a state of the art helicopter or jet which makes it easier for the person to commit the act, the other is strapped to a human being.
Civilian death is civilian death. The death of Palestinians as opposed to Jews in this conflict is disproportional. Its not just catching a few civilians, it’s wiping out crowds with one missile.
QUOTE
You go live inside of Israel. You go sit in a restaurant and have your legs blown off while eating a pizza only because you are Jewish
And by the same token, aCe, you go live inside Gaza or the West Bank. With monthly incursions, curfews, hunger, poverty, humiliation, raids and death of family members 'because they were stupid enough to be walking down the road next to a militant that the IDF wanted when he was hit by a missile'.
The people do not see the militants as bad; they are the ones fighting against the oppressive Jewish State, the state that is the cause of their suffering. Give the Palestinians a reason not to bomb Jewish civilian targets; killing their family members is not the way to go about it.
US does have a large influence in Israel, because Israel would be nothing without US coffers! Ask yourself where the US would be without US Aid? No doubt the country has done well, even before the aid came in, but now their economy is in shit, they cannot sustain this type of action to counter the Intifada.
The attack into Syria was a blatant breech of International conduct. If its okay for Israel to raid alleged targets in other countries, then who is to stop other countries from invading nations they declare a threat to them? That is where we are going. Diplomacy must be the first option.
END!
QUOTE(Ziggy @ Oct 8 2003, 02:45 AM)
The problem in the middle-east will be solved by human beings, if ...
Sure Ziggy. If this and if that ...
Belief in mankind is stupidity at its max. Mankind isn't getting better to ever make your IF's come true. It truly baffles my mind that there are still people like you out there, who believe, after thousands of years of blunders, that man can save itself. According to statistics and man's track record, will your IF's ever come true? IF not I recommend you look for something/someone outside of mankind to save the world - and the Middle-East.
It truly baffles me that after thousands of years of wars and suffering in the name of religious elitism and bigotry that people still see it as the way to live.
I am not going to question your beliefs, Giz, but Ziggy hit it spot on, human beings are going to have to settle the problem. And part of that problem is fanatical belief in a religion.
Each party in the Middle East crisis has their own religious and land myth that perpetuates this conflict. People must get over the idea that God promised me this land and no other person lays claim to it.
END!
I am not going to question your beliefs, Giz, but Ziggy hit it spot on, human beings are going to have to settle the problem. And part of that problem is fanatical belief in a religion.
Each party in the Middle East crisis has their own religious and land myth that perpetuates this conflict. People must get over the idea that God promised me this land and no other person lays claim to it.
END!
So Long, Middle East Road Map
By Ian Williams, AlterNet
October 7, 2003
The Middle East road map finally met its untimely but expected demise over the weekend when Israeli bombs landed near Damascus, aimed at an alleged terrorist training camp.
The question this week in diplomatic circles is not how to salvage the peace process but how to avert global mayhem. It's not a question, however, that worries the Bush administration, which appears content to let the Middle East hurtle down the path to possible armageddon.
Supporting the Israeli action, the president said, "Israel's got a right to defend herself, that Israel must not feel constrained in terms of defense of the homeland." This weekend's Israeli attack on Syria shows how far Israeli leader Ariel Sharon will go – and just how willing Bush is to cover for his excesses. When the issue came before the UN Security Council on Sunday, Kofi Annan and most of the other delegates correctly described the attack as a violation of international law and the UN Charter.
In contrast, the Americans decided that any resolution had to be "balanced" with a condemnation of terrorism in general, and the Haifa bombing in particular. (There is no doubt that the Haifa suicide attack was horrific, but the Syrians had no provable or likely connection whatsoever with the bombers.) The Israeli ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman, showed equal chutzpah in decrying Syria's request for an emergency Security Council meeting. He said, "For Syria to ask a debate in this council is comparable only to the Taliban calling for such a debate after 9-11, it would be laughable if it was not so sad."
The attacks on Syria mark the end of any hope that the U.S. will take a firmer line with Sharon. "One-sided," "biased," or "unbalanced" are the knee-jerk reactions to any UN resolution (or indeed any TV program, or any printed article) that suggests that Israeli government behavior is less than perfect. Relentless reiteration by Israel's supporters, the Bush administration, and Tony Blair's government have shifted the terms of the debate to the point that one suspects that any action of Israel, however outrageous, could not be condemned without the insertion of such "balancing" references, or more likely vetoed outright using the handy justification of self-defense against terrorism.
Last week, Kofi Annan condemned Israeli plans to build 600 new homes for settlers in the Occupied Territories as "serious obstacles to the achievement of a two-State solution," and said that the settlements are "a clear breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention and also contradict Israel's commitments under the Quartet's Road Map." The U.S. deemed both statements to be "unhelpful," and so far has shown no signs of suspending the aid that pays for these unhelpful breaches of international law.
The exception was the administration's announcement that it may deduct some of the construction cost for the Israeli security wall separating Israel from the West Bank from the $9 billion in U.S. loan guarantees to Israel as authorized by Congress. UN Human Rights Rapporteur John Dugard, a South African anti-apartheid activist and lawyer, recently issued a report that found that those "living between the Wall and the Green Line will be effectively cut off from their farmlands and workplaces, schools, health clinics and other social services. This is likely to lead to a new generation of refugees or internally displaced persons." Unsurprisingly, the Israelis immediately denounced Dugard's report as "biased and one-sided" even though it had refused to even meet with him during his visit to the region.
Thus far, U.S. has shamefacedly suggested that the settlements and the wall, not to mention the assassination and exile threat are simply "unhelpful," and has shown no signs of suspending the aid that pays for these breaches of international law. And in a typical show of "balanced" policymaking, during the same week, it vetoed a resolution condemning Israel's statements threatening to exile and if necessary assassinate Yasser Arafat (who for all his faults is the only freely elected leader of the Arab world). U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte predictably insisted that the resolution lacked "balance."
The degree of support for U.S. policy in the Middle East can be measured by the vote in the UN General Assembly to condemn Israel for its threats on Arafat. It makes the so-called "coalition of the willing" look impressive. The United States and Israel were joined by Micronesia and Marshall Islands, two tiny states totally dependent on Washington for their budget, the only states to vote against the resolution.
Bush's position on the attack on Syria has disturbing implications for the world, coming on the heels of Kofi Annan's speech to the General Assembly warning of the dangers of unilateralism. In many ways, it's the administration's own actions that have led the way down this dangerous road of "hot preemption." If the U.S. can attack Iraq on suspicion of possessing weapons of mass destruction and harboring terrorism, then how can it call Ariel Sharon to order when he wants to whack an old enemy in a fit of pique? And down the line, what does Washington tell New Delhi if India decides to strike Pakistan or China takes action against Taiwan?
The Bush White House, however, is far more intent on pursuing its own plan for global payback, irrespective of its consequences. Its position on the Israeli attacks was hardly coincidental. There is every sign that the Bush administration is relapsing to its bad old ways. An anonymous administration official told the Knight-Ridder News Services that hawks within the administration are still hoping for "regime change" in Syria, and recently asked the CIA to come up with a list of replacements for Syrian President Bashar Assad. The Congress in tandem is considering the Syria Accountability Act, which authorizes the Bush administration to impose new economic and diplomatic sanctions on that nation.
The reality is that there is more resistance inside the Israel Defense Forces to Sharon's policies than there is in Washington. Twenty four officers of the Israeli air force in recent weeks refused to participate in raids on the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza, especially the assassination raids against the leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The officers felt too many innocent civilians were being killed in the attacks. It's a pity that neither Bush nor Sharon has any such qualms.
================================================
END!
By Ian Williams, AlterNet
October 7, 2003
The Middle East road map finally met its untimely but expected demise over the weekend when Israeli bombs landed near Damascus, aimed at an alleged terrorist training camp.
The question this week in diplomatic circles is not how to salvage the peace process but how to avert global mayhem. It's not a question, however, that worries the Bush administration, which appears content to let the Middle East hurtle down the path to possible armageddon.
Supporting the Israeli action, the president said, "Israel's got a right to defend herself, that Israel must not feel constrained in terms of defense of the homeland." This weekend's Israeli attack on Syria shows how far Israeli leader Ariel Sharon will go – and just how willing Bush is to cover for his excesses. When the issue came before the UN Security Council on Sunday, Kofi Annan and most of the other delegates correctly described the attack as a violation of international law and the UN Charter.
In contrast, the Americans decided that any resolution had to be "balanced" with a condemnation of terrorism in general, and the Haifa bombing in particular. (There is no doubt that the Haifa suicide attack was horrific, but the Syrians had no provable or likely connection whatsoever with the bombers.) The Israeli ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman, showed equal chutzpah in decrying Syria's request for an emergency Security Council meeting. He said, "For Syria to ask a debate in this council is comparable only to the Taliban calling for such a debate after 9-11, it would be laughable if it was not so sad."
The attacks on Syria mark the end of any hope that the U.S. will take a firmer line with Sharon. "One-sided," "biased," or "unbalanced" are the knee-jerk reactions to any UN resolution (or indeed any TV program, or any printed article) that suggests that Israeli government behavior is less than perfect. Relentless reiteration by Israel's supporters, the Bush administration, and Tony Blair's government have shifted the terms of the debate to the point that one suspects that any action of Israel, however outrageous, could not be condemned without the insertion of such "balancing" references, or more likely vetoed outright using the handy justification of self-defense against terrorism.
Last week, Kofi Annan condemned Israeli plans to build 600 new homes for settlers in the Occupied Territories as "serious obstacles to the achievement of a two-State solution," and said that the settlements are "a clear breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention and also contradict Israel's commitments under the Quartet's Road Map." The U.S. deemed both statements to be "unhelpful," and so far has shown no signs of suspending the aid that pays for these unhelpful breaches of international law.
The exception was the administration's announcement that it may deduct some of the construction cost for the Israeli security wall separating Israel from the West Bank from the $9 billion in U.S. loan guarantees to Israel as authorized by Congress. UN Human Rights Rapporteur John Dugard, a South African anti-apartheid activist and lawyer, recently issued a report that found that those "living between the Wall and the Green Line will be effectively cut off from their farmlands and workplaces, schools, health clinics and other social services. This is likely to lead to a new generation of refugees or internally displaced persons." Unsurprisingly, the Israelis immediately denounced Dugard's report as "biased and one-sided" even though it had refused to even meet with him during his visit to the region.
Thus far, U.S. has shamefacedly suggested that the settlements and the wall, not to mention the assassination and exile threat are simply "unhelpful," and has shown no signs of suspending the aid that pays for these breaches of international law. And in a typical show of "balanced" policymaking, during the same week, it vetoed a resolution condemning Israel's statements threatening to exile and if necessary assassinate Yasser Arafat (who for all his faults is the only freely elected leader of the Arab world). U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte predictably insisted that the resolution lacked "balance."
The degree of support for U.S. policy in the Middle East can be measured by the vote in the UN General Assembly to condemn Israel for its threats on Arafat. It makes the so-called "coalition of the willing" look impressive. The United States and Israel were joined by Micronesia and Marshall Islands, two tiny states totally dependent on Washington for their budget, the only states to vote against the resolution.
Bush's position on the attack on Syria has disturbing implications for the world, coming on the heels of Kofi Annan's speech to the General Assembly warning of the dangers of unilateralism. In many ways, it's the administration's own actions that have led the way down this dangerous road of "hot preemption." If the U.S. can attack Iraq on suspicion of possessing weapons of mass destruction and harboring terrorism, then how can it call Ariel Sharon to order when he wants to whack an old enemy in a fit of pique? And down the line, what does Washington tell New Delhi if India decides to strike Pakistan or China takes action against Taiwan?
The Bush White House, however, is far more intent on pursuing its own plan for global payback, irrespective of its consequences. Its position on the Israeli attacks was hardly coincidental. There is every sign that the Bush administration is relapsing to its bad old ways. An anonymous administration official told the Knight-Ridder News Services that hawks within the administration are still hoping for "regime change" in Syria, and recently asked the CIA to come up with a list of replacements for Syrian President Bashar Assad. The Congress in tandem is considering the Syria Accountability Act, which authorizes the Bush administration to impose new economic and diplomatic sanctions on that nation.
The reality is that there is more resistance inside the Israel Defense Forces to Sharon's policies than there is in Washington. Twenty four officers of the Israeli air force in recent weeks refused to participate in raids on the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza, especially the assassination raids against the leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The officers felt too many innocent civilians were being killed in the attacks. It's a pity that neither Bush nor Sharon has any such qualms.
================================================
END!
QUOTE(Driver @ Oct 8 2003, 10:11 AM)
It truly baffles me that after thousands of years of wars and suffering in the name of religious elitism and bigotry that people still see it as the way to live.
What you and Ziggy says validates my point. Man is too full of shit to solve its own problems. And this will NEVER change. I, therefore, choose to look beyond man. And byond man I have found a God that is infallible. It is this God that will intervene sooner or later to stop man from destroying itself.
It takes more faith to believe in Man than to believe in God.
Man is not too full of shit to solve his own problems, man is too disillusioned by the power of religion and the belief in high powers, gods, myth of war, whatever.
Sitting around waiting for the higher power to come and sort things out is not rational.
God is not going to help the Palestinians gert out of the ghettos, god is not going to help the Jews come to a settlement, god is not going to do anything! People on earth, in this reality make the decisions and they are the ones who will solve the problems.
South Africa's problems were solved diplomatically. All world conflicts that were solved (and started) by man.
END!
Sitting around waiting for the higher power to come and sort things out is not rational.
God is not going to help the Palestinians gert out of the ghettos, god is not going to help the Jews come to a settlement, god is not going to do anything! People on earth, in this reality make the decisions and they are the ones who will solve the problems.
South Africa's problems were solved diplomatically. All world conflicts that were solved (and started) by man.
END!
Driver, Ziggy ... pride and arrogance make you blind. You make no secret that you despise those of us who believe in God. You make as if we are stupid and backward - using religion as crutch. To be anti-Christian these days makes one an "intellectual" and you so desperately want to be part of that club - being seen as highly enlightened.
Don't scorn God (and the Bible) if you are not 100% sure about his existence. And I know 100% that you are not 100% sure.
Don't scorn God (and the Bible) if you are not 100% sure about his existence. And I know 100% that you are not 100% sure.
Man should try to solve its problems. I'm not so stupid to suggest otherwise. I'm just saying that I don't believe man will ever succeed in creating a man-made earthly utopia you so desperately want. There will never be peace on this planet without Godly guidance and intevention. But, like you, most people despise God, and therefore can rely on limited human abilities only. I believe in God and in miracles because I know I'm just a fallible human being that cannot solve even my own problems without supernatural help.
Leave Ziggy out for now, you are talking to me, though I am sure he will have something to add later.
You make terrible assumptions, as I dont despise anyone, but what does annoy me is when we are speaking of real world problems, problems created by man, and someone honestly suggests that the solution to those problems is going to be some devine act by a greater being, when, that belief in the devine being and the dogma assocaited with its religion is part and parcel with the problems at hand!
In most cases in history, religion had a hand in violence and justification for war.
Remove the irrational belief in the justifications of the reasons for conflict (ie. God promised me this land and it belongs to my people) and talk about the rational (he is another human being just like me trying to get along) and we have grounds for talks of solutions.
END!
You make terrible assumptions, as I dont despise anyone, but what does annoy me is when we are speaking of real world problems, problems created by man, and someone honestly suggests that the solution to those problems is going to be some devine act by a greater being, when, that belief in the devine being and the dogma assocaited with its religion is part and parcel with the problems at hand!
In most cases in history, religion had a hand in violence and justification for war.
Remove the irrational belief in the justifications of the reasons for conflict (ie. God promised me this land and it belongs to my people) and talk about the rational (he is another human being just like me trying to get along) and we have grounds for talks of solutions.
END!
Driver,
I speak to both you and Ziggy as both of you have been speaking to me.
How can you say you don't despise anyone? Can you honestly say that you are not offending/despising me, and others, by your repeated attacks on religion, Bush, and "Yankees". Go read your posts on this forum and see if they show respect for what I, and others, believe in? I think anyone with half a brain can see that you have issues with Christians, and religion in general. And religion is about people. You cannot despise religion without despising those who belong to that religion.
And, what you may see as rational depends on your limited worldview. My worldview, that includes an omnipotent God, allows me to see far wider than yours.
I speak to both you and Ziggy as both of you have been speaking to me.
How can you say you don't despise anyone? Can you honestly say that you are not offending/despising me, and others, by your repeated attacks on religion, Bush, and "Yankees". Go read your posts on this forum and see if they show respect for what I, and others, believe in? I think anyone with half a brain can see that you have issues with Christians, and religion in general. And religion is about people. You cannot despise religion without despising those who belong to that religion.
And, what you may see as rational depends on your limited worldview. My worldview, that includes an omnipotent God, allows me to see far wider than yours.
I conceded, there are clearly things I despise, but it’s not as shallow as you make it seem.
I have issues with religion in general because it is the breeding ground for bigotry and discrimination. How many times have I read that some people won’t allow (as in law) certain people civil liberties because their bible of their god 'says so’?
Then you still tell me that you have a wider world view! You only see as far as, and allow enough thought as your god and religious book allows. You are set constraints by something that is myth passed on through generation that you would never have considered had you been taught otherwise from a young age.
Am I offending you because I don’t believe what you say? Because I question the return of Christ to save us all?
We are talking about a war has pitched two separate religion groups against each other that has resulted in the slaying of thousands. Do any of these people have the wider worldview that you proclaim to have because they share a belief in an omnipotent God?
Or do they believe in the wrong one?
END!
I have issues with religion in general because it is the breeding ground for bigotry and discrimination. How many times have I read that some people won’t allow (as in law) certain people civil liberties because their bible of their god 'says so’?
Then you still tell me that you have a wider world view! You only see as far as, and allow enough thought as your god and religious book allows. You are set constraints by something that is myth passed on through generation that you would never have considered had you been taught otherwise from a young age.
Am I offending you because I don’t believe what you say? Because I question the return of Christ to save us all?
We are talking about a war has pitched two separate religion groups against each other that has resulted in the slaying of thousands. Do any of these people have the wider worldview that you proclaim to have because they share a belief in an omnipotent God?
Or do they believe in the wrong one?
END!
QUOTE
You make terrible assumptions, as I dont despise anyone, but what does annoy me is when we are speaking of real world problems, problems created by man, and someone honestly suggests that the solution to those problems is going to be some devine act by a greater being, when, that belief in the devine being and the dogma assocaited with its religion is part and parcel with the problems at hand!
Do you believe at all in the old testament, the stuff that was written about Israel and how they went out of Egypt and through the desert to what we know as Israel today or do you think it was all just a fairy tail written by a jew ?
Don't get me wrong in what i am trying to find out, i just want to know what you and ziggy believe about the old testament.
To be honest, Neo, the last time I picked up a bible was about 15 years ago. (And I think that was when I started noticing thsat it burnt my hands! 
)
END!
)END!
Driver,
Maybe I should rephrase:
You have a worldview.
I have a world-and-byond-view.
I believe in a God and angels that can interact from higher dimensions with our three dimensional world (4D including time). You believe in a three dimensional world - and that's it. You and the rest of the world and nothing else. I think my view is wider yes.
What happens to you if you were to die 20:00 tonight? Your answer will determine the width of your view.
Maybe I should rephrase:
You have a worldview.
I have a world-and-byond-view.
I believe in a God and angels that can interact from higher dimensions with our three dimensional world (4D including time). You believe in a three dimensional world - and that's it. You and the rest of the world and nothing else. I think my view is wider yes.
What happens to you if you were to die 20:00 tonight? Your answer will determine the width of your view.
Driver,
If you're not a student of the Old Testament history of the Jews, how can you comment on what's happeing in the Middle-East today? The history of the Jews, as contained in the Old Testament, has been verified to be correct. But you don't want to go there as you are scared of it. It speaks of an omnipotent God and you don't like that.
If you're not a student of the Old Testament history of the Jews, how can you comment on what's happeing in the Middle-East today? The history of the Jews, as contained in the Old Testament, has been verified to be correct. But you don't want to go there as you are scared of it. It speaks of an omnipotent God and you don't like that.
If I die tonight, I cease to exist!
Back to the topic at hand. I believe in me, I believe in humans and every that we do as humans, our interactions, have repurcusions. Sometimes those repurcussions are wars and I believe that because humans made them they can be rectified.
Giz. I respect you and your belief. Dont be getting me wrong, I am always open and accept difference.
I just dont buy into the concept that we're all fucked until some greater power comes to our rescue.
END!
Back to the topic at hand. I believe in me, I believe in humans and every that we do as humans, our interactions, have repurcusions. Sometimes those repurcussions are wars and I believe that because humans made them they can be rectified.
Giz. I respect you and your belief. Dont be getting me wrong, I am always open and accept difference.
I just dont buy into the concept that we're all fucked until some greater power comes to our rescue.
END!
QUOTE(Giz @ Oct 8 2003, 02:42 PM)
If you're not a student of the Old Testament history of the Jews, how can you comment on what's happeing in the Middle-East today?
Do I have to know the inner working of a firearm and the chemistry of gunpowder to know that they kill?
I see people suffering in the area. I have enbough knowledge on the are to make my own judgements. If we are to invoke history that spans 2000 (and the rest) years to to justify the wanton killing of innocents then we truly have lost it. Also, if we are to look at history to to justify one nations claim to land, then we might as well boot all Europeans out of Australia and give it back to the Aborigine's, all the Europeans out of North America, etc.
Dont harp on about this omnipotent god of yours, your begining to sound like a preacher and its annoying!
END!
Thanx Driver. I also respect the fact that you have the right and choice to believe what you want - or not to believe in anything at all.
I do however believe man is doomed to failure outside of Jesus Christ and that He alone offers a way to get out of the mess. Others on this forum will have other gods/ways - and some like you have none. Thats fine, as long as we respect others opinions. Those who take religion serious are not idiots and un-enlightened - and definitely not backward. Some of the worlds greatest minds were religious people - and believed in an omniscient and omnipresent God. For me the world makes no sense outside of my Faith.
I do however believe man is doomed to failure outside of Jesus Christ and that He alone offers a way to get out of the mess. Others on this forum will have other gods/ways - and some like you have none. Thats fine, as long as we respect others opinions. Those who take religion serious are not idiots and un-enlightened - and definitely not backward. Some of the worlds greatest minds were religious people - and believed in an omniscient and omnipresent God. For me the world makes no sense outside of my Faith.
QUOTE(Giz @ Oct 8 2003, 02:57 PM)
Those who take religion serious are not idiots and un-enlightened - and definitely not backward.
Just take note, Giz, you were the first to use those words, no one said that about anyone here.
'Israel punishing Palestinians'
END!
QUOTE(Driver @ Oct 8 2003, 02:53 PM)
Do I have to know the inner working of a firearm and the chemistry of gunpowder to know that they kill? ... Dont harp on about this omnipotent god of yours, your begining to sound like a preacher and its annoying!
We're talking politics here not chemistry and mechanics. And in politics history is important. To understand today you first have to understand yesterday. Without a good understanding of Jewish and Arab history you will make a fool of yourself. I know its the "in thing" to be anti-Jewish, anti-Bush, and anti-America these days but what feels "lekker" should not replace good study and proper thought.
I will aceept that, Giz, you make a very valid point. But me not knowing the bibles interpretation of the history does not make me ignorent to the conflict.
Dont patronize me by making the assumption that my views are fad driven. You know little about me and why I stand for these ideas.
And the comment about being anti-jewish is quite surprising, its usually comment made by a zionist who feels that any criticism of Israel can only mean the person does not like Jews.
END!
Dont patronize me by making the assumption that my views are fad driven. You know little about me and why I stand for these ideas.
And the comment about being anti-jewish is quite surprising, its usually comment made by a zionist who feels that any criticism of Israel can only mean the person does not like Jews.
END!
QUOTE(Giz @ Oct 8 2003, 10:34 AM)
Man should try to solve its problems. I'm not so stupid to suggest otherwise. I'm just saying that I don't believe man will ever succeed in creating a man-made earthly utopia you so desperately want. There will never be peace on this planet without Godly guidance and intevention. But, like you, most people despise God, and therefore can rely on limited human abilities only. I believe in God and in miracles because I know I'm just a fallible human being that cannot solve even my own problems without supernatural help.
First off I don't despise you. You are not worthy of such an investement of emotions. Truth be told I dislike Driver more (he is an irritating wanker). I couldn't care less which God you worship. I despair for you because of your arrogant attitude and your idiot assumptions. I know a few 'inellectual' athiests who dropped God to be 'hip' as you insinuate I did, I really really can't stand these people because they make a mokery of the difficult choice I made, but then you didn't know that did you, you just assumed.
Assumptions are the mother of all fuckups.
I'm not too bothered about weather God exists or not, I really don't think She would give a shit if She did anyway.
Human beings have issues, yes. Despite that we have the capacity to overcome our failings and better the world. Unfortunately people like you refuse to see the strength that humans are capible of. You will always insist that we are worthless and incapible of mastering our own destinies, and that only some halo in the sky with a long white beard can save us. If you ask me this is a cowardly and irrisponsible attitude - a defeatists attitude who would rather meekly lay down and accept his lot in life and hope that some divine flash of lightning will make things right for him. Do I despise you? No, you only evoke pity - you only deserve pity, you are only WORTH pity.
I'm a realist - even a pessimist. I doubt anything short of a few megatons of nuclear explosives will ever bring peace to the middle-east. And why? Because people are so wrapped up in their religeon, so convinced that they are 'the chosen ones' that they don't see that those are innocent babies frying to a crisp on the bus they just blew up, or the building they just carpet-bombed. Saying relegion is the solution here is like saying a cancer transplant will cure your brain tumour. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try anyway. To try and fail is better than just saying, 'Oh don't worry about it, God will pop in next Tuseday and fix it.'
People will always kill people, weather its in the name of their god or just out of plain nastiness, we will never achieve any type of utopia. Even if there IS a God, we are just a tiny insignificant fleck in an infinate universe. I think He would have more pressing issues than our petty sqabbles.
No we are on our own here, and its up to us to solve our own problems like big boys and girls who don't go running to teacher everytime we scrape a knee, because if we can't nobody else ig gonna solve them for us.
QUOTE(Ziggy @ Oct 9 2003, 01:50 AM)
Truth be told I dislike Driver more (he is an irritating wanker).
*breaks into a rap number by the black eyed pees* Where is the love??
END!
QUOTE(Ziggy @ Oct 9 2003, 01:50 AM)
Despite that we have the capacity to overcome our failings and better the world ... I doubt anything short of a few megatons of nuclear explosives will ever bring peace to the middle-east ... People will always kill people, weather its in the name of their god or just out of plain nastiness, we will never achieve any type of utopia.
The more you talk the more you prove my point. Just listen to yourself. Your solution is a nuclear clean out of all those that differ from your atheist viewpoint. I need say no more ...
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