The validity of the Bible, This I can't let go Options

[russell]

This is an offshoot of the "world origin thread" to pickup on a point Kaless is trying to make...

The bible is a religious book.
There are not and never will be enough evidence to prove the the bible either right or wrong. But where the evidence
exist, it was never proven wrong or fictional.

What evidence? Which sections are right, which are wrong?

Scientific evidence that can stand in a court of law.

You can't just claim that, you'd have to elaborate on some of the evidence. Otherwise it's just an assertion of your own belief, it says nothing about the validity of the bible. For my own part, I believe the bible to be created by men, with no other inspiration than it being a tool of the catholic church as it attempted to spread and solidify it's power. But if you can prove it is scientifically accurate in some parts, not just propaganda, that would be appreciated.

[Kaless]

[/quote]
You can't just claim that, you'd have to elaborate on some of the evidence. Otherwise it's just an assertion of your own belief, it says nothing about the validity of the bible. For my own part, I believe the bible to be created by men, with no other inspiration than it being a tool of the catholic church as it attempted to spread and solidify it's power. But if you can prove it is scientifically accurate in some parts, not just propaganda, that would be appreciated.
[/quote]

Look Here.
There was a program on tv where thy took a subject to experts some who believe it impossible some who believe it to be true and then let the viewer make the choice as to which side stand the test. The people who believed it impossible could never make their point stick or produce reasonable evidence to support their case.

To the best of my knowledge the bible was never proven wrong or fictional either in the program or anywhere else.

The bible predates the catholic church. Some parts of it by a couple thousand years eg. Dead Sea Scrolls.
It was written by men yes but under the guidance of God over the course of thousands of years.

[cyfermaster]

I moved this into the fight club, as I can see it going south for the winter. Have fun peoples.

[russell]

The bible predates the catholic church. Some parts of it by a couple thousand years eg. Dead Sea Scrolls.
It was written by men yes but under the guidance of God over the course of thousands of years.

Your wikipedia article limits the range possible, the second century BC to the first century AD. There is no proof it was any longer. So "thousands of years" is an assumption. The old testament predates the Catholic church, the new testament does not. So maybe the old jewish priesthood also used it as a tool of control/propaganda.

You say that TV show let the viewer make up their own mind and that the view that the bible was false couldnt be defended. Since the show let people make up their own mind, the two arguments they presented must have been equally unprovable. If one was provable, the other not, it would have been presented as that. I think you let your pre-existing belief cloud your judgment and you automatically denigrated the counter argument.

As for the "guidance of god" thing, that's not something you can prove, and you will probably claim as self-evident, so we'll let that lie.

You still havent offered irrefutable proof that the bible is accurate.

Cyfer : Thanks for the move

Edit : Bad spelling

This post has been edited by RevQ: Apr 8 2007, 01:49 AM

[Phoenix]

Irrefutable proof? Come on now, why would you go and ask for something that doesn't exist?

Of course it's not accurate. It's written by people. And translated over centuries into a million different languages. And based on hearsay. And whatnot.

Even if something's not accurate, that doesn't mean it's false or that it doesn't hold any truth. It just means that you take it with a pinch of salt, and that's where faith comes in. You've got it or you don't.

Historical record is the same. It's not necessarily accurate, that's just how it got 'translated.'

Accuracy here is pointless. Wherever belief comes in, it always will be.

[RenegadeNukes]

Whoa, Whoa

Chill out ands take a breather. T

This is how i see the bible (i'm not a christian - but i'll treat this argument as i would for our own holy scriptures). The bible serves as a signpost for millions to help them choose good morals and lead a good life of integrity that the bible tells them to take. The bible was written several thousand years ago and its value as a signpost has not been diminished by the ravages of time

The bible is a guide for us to live a good life. I don't think that the bible can be de-valued due the the conflicts of genesis with modern day thinking. The bible is a guide - not intnded to be a history repost of how the world began.

The theories of how the world began are only ones opinions that have been influenced by information and experiences, genesis is ones opinion while the Big Bang is another. Both are theories and none will evey be proven in our lifetime or likely never at all,

[Kaless]

Whoa, Whoa

Chill out ands take a breather. T

This is how i see the bible (i'm not a christian - but i'll treat this argument as i would for our own holy scriptures). The bible serves as a signpost for millions to help them choose good morals and lead a good life of integrity that the bible tells them to take. The bible was written several thousand years ago and its value as a signpost has not been diminished by the ravages of time

The bible is a guide for us to live a good life. I don't think that the bible can be de-valued due the the conflicts of genesis with modern day thinking. The bible is a guide - not intnded to be a history repost of how the world began.

The theories of how the world began are only ones opinions that have been influenced by information and experiences, genesis is ones opinion while the Big Bang is another. Both are theories and none will evey be proven in our lifetime or likely never at all,

Thx RenegadeNukes.
If I am correct the much of legal systems of most of the western world is based on the principals contained in religious books like the Bible and the Koran.

[Mr. Magic Matrix]

Ouch this is one heated argument

This is how i see the bible (i'm not a christian - but i'll treat this argument as i would for our own holy scriptures). The bible serves as a signpost for millions to help them choose good morals and lead a good life of integrity that the bible tells them to take. The bible was written several thousand years ago and its value as a signpost has not been diminished by the ravages of time

The bible is a guide for us to live a good life. I don't think that the bible can be de-valued due the the conflicts of genesis with modern day thinking. The bible is a guide - not intnded to be a history repost of how the world began.

Thank you very much Nukes.

Well yes ithe bible is really only a sign post and nothing more, we really cna't be comparing it against science and tearing its thousand year old predictions against todays knowledge.

[russell]

So it's not factual, according to you guys it doesnt have to be. It's a collection of sign posts, arranged in what you effectively labelled fiction. Do you guys live by that?

Let's see...

Give 10% of everything you earn to the church.
Ah, here's a choice, eye for an eye or turn the other cheek? Contradictory signposts... hmm

Women must really suffer around you guys, as far as I remember, the old testament requires the following :-
- Don't touch women when they're menstruating, they're unclean. Your girlfriends/wives must love hearing that.
- Stone adulterers.

The bible is a signpost of how to live, which of you follow it? Havent heard of any stonings being performed for quite a while, or do you gloss over the sections you disagree with, those that are just a tad too inconvenient for you?

[Carrots]

Same old same old, RevQ.

Christians follow the New Testament. What you have quoted is from the Old Testament. The gist of the New Testament is that belief in Jesus Christ as our Saviour > *, with forgiveness & Tolerance > ~ *

The sad part is that some people and even churches do gloss over the parts they dont agree with. I dont think the whole of the Bible should be taken literally, but whatever it says was/is true to some degree. That is what I believe.

Just as I believe in the God, which does not lie, I also know that there are lots of people who distort the truth for their own gains. I still believe that the Bible in the original texts to be 100% correct. Written by man, inspired by God. There will obviously be some distortion during translations, but I doubt that those distortions could be so significant to alter a meaning completely.

[russell]

So if christians follow the new testament, and not the old testament, why do they quote genesis when it comes to the origin of the world? Why does the christian bible have an old testament section then, if you don't follow it?

Furthermore, some of the points I picked on do come from the New Testament.

"Women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says." (1 Cor 14:34)
"And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head--it is just as though her head were shaved." (1 Cor 11:5)
"For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. " (1 Cor 11:8)
"For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (1 Cor 14:33-35)

And those attitudes weren't just Paul, what about the book of Timothy, written after Paul died
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (1 Timothy 2:9-10)

Some of the restrictions are only in the Old Testament, which apparently doesnt count for christians, but there are enough in the New Testament. Guess the whole irrelevance of the old testament rules out the ten commandments as well.

[Paul]

THE BIBLE IS SEXIST!

[russell]

THE BIBLE IS SEXIST!

Yeah, because the catholic church, the group of power hungry machiavellian schemers who wrote it are sexist. Believing the bible is like believing a Nazi propaganda poster. No truth to it, but damn it's convincing

[Fishfly]

And those attitudes weren't just Paul, what about the book of Timothy, written after Paul died
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (1 Timothy 2:9-10)

paul died?!?!?!?!?!?

personally I take the bible with a pinch of salt, yes I do take the morals and values it teaches to heart but to really believe the bible and base my life around the bible it's not for me.

[RenegadeNukes]

The bible is a signpost of how to live, which of you follow it? Havent heard of any stonings being performed for quite a while, or do you gloss over the sections you disagree with, those that are just a tad too inconvenient for you?

The bible is not fiction, it is not fact! It is a human account that sits on the borderline between those to - "It didn't fall from the sky one day and hit Jesus christ in the head".

It is a guidebook, not a rulebook. And what it said thousands of years ago would have been the norm but as we devolop these norms change and as we move through time thet will continue changing. Age and Context has to be considered here RevQ

[Dr.Death]

What is it with people to scratch these wounds everytime, close to a Christian day???

There are 365 and a third days in a year to scratch, why should Christians have to validate their religion on these days.

Here's a story i read not to long ago, it is in afrikaans ,wich i believe almost everyone understands and if you dont, i am pretty sure it can be found somewhere on the net.

All i can say is, long after you stopped looking for God, He will find you' .

God Het My Gekry!

Markus 11:27-33

Die kerkmanne kom en bevraagteken Jesus se gesag. Eintlik wil hulle Hom net

probeer vastrek sodat hulle Hom kan veroordeel, maar met 'n baie slim

antwoord gooi Jesus die vraag reguit terug na hulle toe. Die afgelope drie

jaar het hulle alles gesien wat Jesus gedoen het, maar steeds bly hulle

verhard teenoor Hom. Hoe lank moet dit aanhou voordat hulle die ware Jesus

kon sien?

John Powell, Professor aan die Loyola Universiteit in Chicago , het die

volgende insident vertel oor 'n student wat ook vir Jesus bevraagteken het.

Hy skryf:

"Sowat twaalf jaar gelede het ek gestaan en kyk hoe my studente die klas

instap vir hulle eerste lesing van Die Teologie Van Geloof. Daar het ek vir

die eerste keer vir Tommy gesien. Ek het my oë geknip om seker te maak ek

sien reg: hy was besig om sy lang hare te kam - hare wat tot ses duim

onderkant sy skouers gehang het. Dit was die eerste keer dat ek 'n seun

gesien het met sulke lang hare - daardie mode het seker maar so pas die

wêreld getref. Ek het natuurlik besef dat dit nie dít op jou kop is wat tel

nie, maar wat binne is, maar ek was totaal onvoorbereid vir hierdie gesig.

In my gedagtes het ek vir Tommy geliasseer onder "V" vir Vreemd - baie

Vreemd.

Dit het so uitgedraai dat Tommy die "plaaslike ateïs" van my Teologie klas

was. Hy het tot vervelens toe gekerm, smalende aanmerkings gemaak, en enige

moontlikheid van 'n onvoorwaardelike, liefdevolle Vader/God in twyfel

getrek. Ons het mekaar in relatiewe vrede verdra vir die eerste semester,

maar ek moet byvoeg dat hy dikwels maar vir my 'n ernstige pyn in die

agterbanke was.

Na die eindeksamen stap hy na my toe en vra smalend: "Prof, dink jy ek sal

ooit vir God vind?"

Ek besluit om 'n bietjie skokterapie toe te pas: "Nee!", sê ek kortaf.

"O," reageer hy verbaas, "Ek het gedink u sal die produk wou verkoop."

Ek het hom kans gegee om so vyf treë uit die klas te loop voordat ek hom

agterna geroep het: "Tommy, ek dink nie jy sal ooit vir God kry nie, maar

ek is beslis seker dat Hy vir jou sal kry!"

Hy het vir 'n oomblik gehuiwer, en toe verdwyn hy uit my klas en uit my

lewe. Ek was teleurgesteld dat hy nie my slim antwoord: "Hy sal jou kry!"

gesnap het nie. Ek het ten minste gedínk dat dit 'n baie slim lyn was......

Ek het later verneem dat Tommy graad gevang het, en ek was dankbaar. Maar

toe kom die droewige nuus: Tommy het terminale kanker. Voordat ek hom kon

opsoek het hy eendag na my toe gekom. Ek het geskrik toe hy in my kantoor

instap - sy liggaam was uitgeteer, en die pragtige lang hare het uitgeval

van die chemoterapie, maar sy oë het geblink en sy stemtoon was vir die

eerste keer selfversekerd.

"Tommy, ek het so baie aan jou gedink. Ek hoor jy is siek", stamel ek dit

uit.

O ja, ek is baie siek. Ek het kanker in albei longe. Ek het nog net 'n

paar weke oor."

" Kan jy daaroor praat, Tommy?" wou ek weet.

"Seker, wat wil jy weet?" antwoord hy.

"Hoe voel dit om maar net vier en twintig te wees, en sterwend te wees?"

"Aag, dit kon baie erger gewees het."

"Hoe so?"

"Wel, ek kon vyftig gewees het sonder enige lewenswaardes of ideale;

vyftig, en al wat tel is drank, om vrouens te verlei, en om geld te maak;

dat dit die enigste groot dinge in die lewe is."

Ek het deur my liasseringstelsel begin soek onder die letter "V", daar waar

ek vir Tommy onder "Vreemd" geliasseer het. Dit lyk vir my dat almal wat ek

probeer van ontslae raak in my klassifikasie - vir hulle stuur God weer

terug in my lewe in om my te kom opvoed.

"Waaroor ek u eintlik kom sien het", sê Tommy, "is oor iets wat u gesê het

op die laaste dag wat ek in u klas was." (Hy het sowaar onthou!)

Ek het u gevra of ek ooit vir God sou vind, en u het 'Nee!' gesê - iets wat

my werklik verbaas het. Maar toe sê u 'Maar Hy sal JOU vind.' Ek het baie

hieroor nagedink, alhoewel my soeke na God nie juis baie ernstig was nie.

(My slim antwoord! Hy het sowaar daaroor nagedink!)

"Maar toe kom die slegte nuus, toe die dokters 'n knop uit my lies moes

verwyder, en hulle my moes meedeel dat dit kwaadaardig was. Dit is tóé wat

ek eers werklik vir God begin soek het. Die kanker het deur my hele liggaam

versprei, en ek het my vuiste rou geslaan teen die hemel se poorte ...

maar God het nie te voorskyn gekom nie. Om die waarheid te sê, het absoluut

niks gebeur nie! Professor, het u al ooit vir 'n lang tyd baie hard probeer

om iets reg te kry sonder sukses? Sielkundig takel dit jou totaal af. Jy

raak moedeloos, en uiteindelik gee jy moed op.

Wel, een oggend het ek wakker geword, en in plaas daarvan dat ek weer 'n

paar bakstene oor daardie hoë muur van die hemel probeer gooi het om God,

wat dalk nie eers daar is nie, wakker te maak, het ek net opgehou probeer.

Ek het besluit dat ek rêrag nie meer omgee oor God of Sy ewige lewe of

enigiets nie. Ek het besluit dat ek die tydjie wat ek oor het, baie beter

kon gebruik deur iets werklik lonend te doen. Ek het baie gedink aan die

dinge wat u in die klas vir ons gesê het, en een van die dinge wat ek kon

onthou was dat u gesê het: 'Dit is tragies om deur die lewe te gaan sonder

liefde. Maar dit is net so tragies om hierdie wêreld te verlaat sonder dat

jy vir diegene wat jy liefhet vertel het dat jy hulle liefhet.'

En so begin ek toe met die moeilikste een - my pa. Hy het gesit en koerant

lees toe ek by hom kom.

"Pa...."

"Ja, wat?" Hy het my geantwoord sonder om eers die koerant te laat sak.

"Ek wil graag met Pa praat."

"Nou toe, praat maar."

"Pa, dis baie belangrik."

Die koerant sak so effens. "Wat is dit?"

"Pa, ek is lief vir Pa. Ek wou maar net hê dat Pa dit moet weet."

(Tommy het breed geglimlag, en ek kon duidelik sien dat 'n warm gloed van

vreugde uit hom straal.)

"Die koerant het uit my pa se hande geval. En toe doen hy twee dinge wat hy

nog nooit voorheen gedoen het nie: hy het gehuil en hy het my styf omhels.

Ons het die hele nag deur gesels. Dit was 'n wonderlike gevoel om so naby

aan my pa te wees, om sy trane te sien en sy omhelsing te voel, en om hom

net te kon hoor sê dat hy my liefhet.

Met my ma en my kleinboet was dit makliker. Hulle het ook saam met my

gehuil en my omhels, en ons het mooi dinge vir mekaar gesê. Ons het die

dinge met mekaar gedeel wat ons al die jare vir mekaar geheim gehou het.

Daar was net een ding waaroor ek so bitter jammer was - dat dit so lank

moes vat voordat ons hierdie dinge kon doen. En hier was ek nou, besig om

oop te maak teenoor almal wat al die jare baie naby aan my was.

En eendag, toe ek weer sien, toe was God daar! Hy het nie na my toe gekom

toe ek Hom gesmeek het nie. Ek dink ek was dalk soos 'n leeutemmer wat met

my hoepel gestaan het en vir God probeer sê het: 'Spring! Spring! Ek gee U

drie dae - drie weke......' Dit lyk my God doen dinge op Sy eie manier, en

op Sy eie tyd. Maar die belangrike ding was dat God daar was! Hy het my

gevind. Ja, u was reg Prof., Hy het my gekry, selfs nadat ek opgehou het om

vir Hom te soek."

My mond het oopgehang: "Tommy, jy het iets baie belangrik vir my vertel -

iets wat baie, baie groter is as wat jy dalk sou besef. Wat jy eintlik sê,

is dat die maklikste manier om God NIE te vind nie, is om Hom jou

persoonlike besitting te probeer maak - 'n soort-van probleemoplosser of 'n

kits-troos wanneer jy in die nood is. Dit is beter om eerder net jou hart

oop te maak vir liefde. Jy weet, Paulus het gesê dat God liefde is, en dat

as jy in liefde leef, dan leef jy met God, en God in jou.

Tom, kan ek jou 'n groot guns vra? Jy weet, die tyd toe jy in my klas was,

was jy vir my 'n groot pyn. Maar nou kan jy opmaak vir alles, as jy sou

instem om na my Teologie-klas toe te kom en vir my studente te kom vertel

wat jy vanoggend vir my vertel het. Hoe lyk dit? Jy weet, as ek dit vir

hulle moet vertel sou dit nie naasteby dieselfde effek hê nie."

"Ooooo .... ek weet nie so mooi nie - ek was gereed om vanoggend met u te

kom praat ..... maar vir die klas - daarvoor sien ek nie so mooi kans nie."

"Gaan dink maar daaroor, en as jy gereed is laat jy my weet."

'n Paar dae later skakel Tommy my: hy was gereed om sy verhaal met die klas

te kom deel, en hy wou dit doen vir God en vir my. Ek het 'n afspraak met

hom gemaak, maar hy kon daardie afspraak nooit nakom nie, want daar was 'n

ander, baie belangriker afspraak wat hy moes nakom - baie belangriker as ek

of die klas.

In der waarheid was sy lewe nie be-eindig deur sy dood nie - dit het net

verander. Hy het die reuse stap geneem van geloof na werklikheid. Hy het 'n

nuwe lewe gekry, baie mooier as wat ek en jy ooit van kan droom - baie

heerliker as wat enigeen ooit gesien of ondervind het.

Voordat Tommy dood is het hy nog een laaste maal met my gepraat:

"Ek sal dit nie kan maak na die klas toe nie."

"Ek weet Tommy."

"Sal u asseblief vir hulle vertel? Sal u .... vertel my verhaal aan die

hele wêreld .... asseblief?"

"Ek sal, Tommy, ek sal my bes probeer."

Dus wil ek vanoggend vir jou, liewe leser, baie dankie sê dat jy die tyd

afgestaan het om hierdie eenvoudige verhaaltjie van liefde te lees. En vir

jou, Tommy, daar waar jy êrens in die hemel is - ek het vir hulle vertel,

Tommy, so goed as wat ek maar kon.

Hierdie is 'n ware verhaal - vertel dit gerus maar oor vir 'n vriend of

twee.

Met groot dank.

John Powell, Professor Loyola Universiteit, Chicago

[russell]

It is a guidebook, not a rulebook. And what it said thousands of years ago would have been the norm but as we devolop these norms change and as we move through time thet will continue changing. Age and Context has to be considered here RevQ

Basically, you pick the parts you like and ignore the ones you dont.

What is it with people to scratch these wounds everytime, close to a Christian day???

There are 365 and a third days in a year to scratch, why should Christians have to validate their religion on these days.

This has nothing to do with the fact that it's near a christian holy day. This is an offshoot from another thread. I dont believe in Jesus, and by consequence Easter. To feel that I am bound by your religious holidays is myopic. I don't feel that christians are questioning my faith just because it's close to one of my sabbats. It's because they either think I'm wrong or are curious about my beliefs.

A christian accusing a witch of persecution, now that's irony

Anyway, this discussion isn't going anywhere. Time to let it die I guess

[BlackRazor]

Dont kill,steal,hump your neighbor,envy,... sounds like the writer needed to get laid.
Merry Easter! ...Don't fear the hole(y) zombie.

[J-Pott]

It is a guidebook, not a rulebook. And what it said thousands of years ago would have been the norm but as we devolop these norms change and as we move through time thet will continue changing. Age and Context has to be considered here RevQ

That is how I feel about it.....
I was raised in an extremly religious home where religion was shoved up my nose every day. My parents are baptist missionaries and expected me to follow suit but I chose to follow my own path. So as a result I am happily sitting here with a Jack & Coke in one hand and a cigarette in the other. I do do believe in a higher power but I don't believe in religion. Religion is a tool that men use to control other weaker men.

there's my 2 cents......

[emucade]

The bible,
The debates are, Do we take it literality or metaphorically.
NONE !
You see the bible was written so people could understand it. At the time
It was written, people had very little knowledge. It was common that people were
born and died in there village. Many people at that time would travel less then
20 miles or so from there place of birth.
In order to understand the bible we must think like people use to think.
then we will understand things to come.