When I hear those words, I get angry.

I get angry because the constitution is supposed to protect the rights of people. But it this forsaken country it does not protect those who abide by the law but rather those who break the law.

Here is what I say :

THE CONSTITUTION IS FLAWED!!!!

Bear with me.

Let's take the death penalty.

I am for the death penalty. But the minute I mention that I support the death penalty, someone utters those bullshit words "Its unconstitutional"

Let me tell you what is really unconstitutional.

It is unconstitutional that I pay taxes that get used to fund correctional services that clearly DO NOT WORK!
It is unconstitutional that I am forced to live in fear in my own country, because there is no proper deterrent against violent crime.
It is unconstitutional that the person who takes another person's life has more rights than the person he killed.
It is unconstitutional that I may not take a proactive stance against crimes against myself, my loved ones and my property.
It is unconstitutional that I have to pay more and more money on security and recovery measures to protect my property when the legal system does not correctly administer a proper punishment nor does the system provide adequate preventative measure. Damn. The state should pay for my netstar. Not me.
It is unconstitutional that I am forced to pay taxes that gets squandered on planes and overseas trips for the people that run this country(badly I might add)
It is unconstitutional that my family's safety needs to be in grave danger before I am allowed to protect them with violence as means, even in my own home.
It is unconstitutional that I am not allowed to apply to carry a licenced and controlled weapon to protect myself and my loved ones against criminals who buy weapons at the local shebeen together with a quart of beer.
It is unconstitutional that I am forced to pay taxes which are used to supply criminals with 3 square meals and a roof over their heads.
It is unconstitutional that I am forced to pay for my own health care while criminals get top health care paid for by yours truly.
It is unconstitutional that in this country minorities with disabilities are forced to fend for themselves and are not being cared for by the state using my tax money.
It is unconstitutional that poor people cannot pay for great education. Education and health care should be paid for by the state. Wealthy people can afford to pay for decent education but thats not fair on the poor people who have the ability but not the money.
It is unconstitutional that my tax money is not getting used to pay our policemen and women a decent salary. It's no wonder we have so many corrupt cops.
It is unconstitutional the punishment for murder is less lenient than minor crimes, such as fraud. You get found guilty of murder and you get a bed, 3 square meals and a roof over your head. NOT TO MENTION ENTERTAINMENT!
It is unconstitutional that we have a state leader who is convinced that taking a shower will prevent aids. This person is not only a bad influence on the general population but is a danger to our society.
It is unconstitutional that we live in a country where our minister of health recommends eating beetroot to cure aids.
It is unconstitutional that we live in a country where our minister of health has no real understanding of important health issues pr the benefits of anti-retrol viral drugs.
It is unconstitutional that we live in a country where criminals have no regard for the law and often kill policemen.
It is unconstitutional that we have an ambassador that is guilty on multiple counts of sexual harrasment but is protected by other leaders.
It is unconstitutional that the the people who do not conform to the laws and do not heed the constitutional rights of others may still retain their own constitutional rights.

The minute you are found guilty of murder, rape or any other violent crime you should be stripped of your own constitutional rights.
and that means you get put to death.

What bullshit is it that while you are attending a correctional facility for crimes that you commited that you are allowed to have the same rights as those people who aren't in jail. Such as voting. The only voting rights that people in prison should have should be along the lines of : Do you want Corn Flakes or oats for breakfast? and even that is pushing it. I mean HELLOOOO youre in jail for a reason.

The one argument that people have who are against the death penalty is that they ask the question : What if the person is innocent?

I do beleive that where there is smoke there is fire, everyone is innocent until they are proven guilty. AND IF YOU ARE PROVEN GUILTY THEN YOU SHOULD SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES!!!
Besides if a person is wrongfully put to death it would be most unfortunate but then can be seen as a casualty of war.
and yes it is a war, a war against crime and criminals.

The number of people who would be wrongfully put to death would be FAR LESS than the number of actual guilty people.

Besides, even if the person is innocent but is never able to prove his or her innocence he is going to spend 20 years in jail anyway, what kind of a life is that? is it any better than being dead?

Often people will ask "What if it was a member of your family that is put to death by accident?"
My response is "What if it was a member of YOUR family that was violently raped and murdered? would you still have the same stance?"

I lost a very close family member nearly 7 years ago. I recommend it as the meal of the day.
Lose someone you love and see if you dont adopt the eye for an eye stance too.

Another often asked question with regard to someone who is guilty of murder is :

"Oh and what if he is rehabilitated and released?"
Well, let me refer you to a man by the name of Arthur Shawcross.
Paroled after serving 15 years for the brutal rape and murder of two children in upstate New York.

Was he successfully rehabilitated ?

No, because in 21 months following his release he killed another 11 people before being caught.

From the mother of one of his victims: "I have to go to the cemetery to see my daughter. His mother goes to jail to see him and I don't think it's fair."

The argument that the death penalty is not a deterrent is fruitless. Because even if it isn't a deterrent, at least we'll be taking out the trash and freeing up space in our jails.

Name just one, only one murderer, child pornographer or rapist that was sent to jail, was successfully rehabilitated and returned to society and CONTRIBUTED to society in a meaningful way.

Not a single one. Ever.

I disagree, because your argument is not BEE compliant. Sorry!

Essentially there is no question. Firstly it is not just to punish someone for killing, by killing them. If we admit there is no hope for rehabilitation we are basically giving in. Secondly, if one out of 1,000,000 people killed is innocent (whereas in South Africa the ratio is more like 3 in every 10) then its all not been worth it.

LOL at Rav

I'd gladly be in support of the death penalty but I'm against it because:

1) There is no infrastructure to support it i.e. with the justice system flawed as it is, it wouldn't be able to convict people reliably. This is especially dangerous since we're talking lives here, not just a prison sentence.
2) It has been proven that the death penalty is not a deterrent against committing crime.
3) I cannot see how killing someone for killing someone else is not hypocritical.

Until we sort the rest of the system out, there ain't gonna be no death penalty. I can see marijuana being legalized long before they start frying criminals.

I would have to say that I think those figures are WAY off.

Our police struggle to catch guilty people. The chances of them catching innocents is even slimmer.

Although mind you, they probably do have a better chance of catching more innocents cause THEY DONT KNOW HOW TO DO THEIR JOBS AND THAT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

Did you write all that Rush? Being in some other 'fine' African countries i was almost at the point of kissing the tarmac when I got out down here again. Seriously, our country is fucked up but we really take our infrastructure for granted.

I have to agree with all the UNCONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS that Rush mentioned, we as law abiding citizens have to deal with that shit... yet the murderer,child molestor, biach ass c^@$ that shoots my family gets to go free...

I say we do what the muslims do... chop their hand for stealing PROVIDED there's CLEAR CUT evidence to support the case, CASTRATE the rapist, BEHEAD the murderer/gunman who shot 20 other people while robbing a ice cream stand.

yeah, when I get a bee in my bonnet I like to let rip.



NOTE : AFRICAN!

Its because I feel that without european influence Africa is fucked.

We should have a system like Canada;

Cops are a VERY well payed
School is free (up to post grad varsity and ad hoc courses)
Medical is free (except cosmetic)

That's a pretty ignorant approach. Sure I agree that criminals should meet punishments that fit the crime, but it also makes the extremists who practice the same code of conduct to see themselves above the law when they blow themselves and innocent civilians up in the name of Allah.

A hand for a hand, and an eye for an eye... now where did I read that?

I couldn't agree with you more, if I lived in Canada or one of the many fine European countries that would be the least I'd expect.

We can't live in a pipedream of suddenly becoming some utopian first world country. I believe we're on the right track to sorting our problems out, slowly but surely we're sifting out the corruption, which in my opinion is where the problems start. Right from the very top, rolling downwards.

It's the rest of Africa which I'm worried about, we're one of 54 countries on this continent. That's 54 points of influence not to mention the global pressures of politics.

It is like that sonofabitch that bribed his way of prison and then went on yet another crime spree. You know how many more women he raped, how many more lives he ruined after getting out?

That piece of lowlife shit is a habitual criminal who should be electrocuted, hanged, beheaded, injected and then cut up into several hundred pieces, each of which should be burnt and then pissed on, before his ashes are finally laid to rest in satan's toilet bowl in the bowels of hell next to the sonofabitch that released him and every other sonofabitch that ever committed rape or murder.

I will dispense my own justice to the next sonofabitch that threatens my life, space or property or so much as even thinks about it.

Fcuk the constitution, there is only one law...He who is scum, shall die like scum.

Now we just need that legally enforced.

I say that if there is irrefutable proof, then the fuckers should burn. You rape, then you get your dick chopped off. Nah, if you rapem then you should actually be killed. You murder someone, then you are killed.

The death penalty will actualy save a lotta money as well. Why should tax payers' money be used to pay for lifelong accomodation for someone found guilty of murder? Kill the swine, and that is that (as long as there is irrefutable proof of course).

The death penalty... Its unconstitutional, so deal with it! I dont agree with it being uconstitutional and when I do qualify as an advocate in the future, it will definitely be something I lobby for... but at this moment, that is the way it stands.

Free education? free medical aid? the government doesnt even have enough money to build houses for all the homeless and besides most of the money is embezzled anyway... we are not a first world country and have a long way to becoming one..

i've been the victim of crime more than once, i've lost people i love to crime too, but i dont believe in an eye for an eye... people who do wrong will get what is due to them in the afterlife and i find comfort in that.. rustpuppet is right.. the death penalty does not serve as a deterrent to crime.

and technically speaking as a lawyer, rush, none of the rights you mentioned are unconstitutional.. yes the country is messed up and over-run with corruption and malfeasance and yes some rights are unfair to others and are too lenient in terms of criminal punishment, but i agree with fudzy, we are making improvements and beginning to sort the problems out

i can understand the anger, but i think a better way for people to use that energy is to lobby for changes, get involved, start a lobby group or something... if you think you're complaints are going to be heard by the government all the way from your house, think again.. i mean look at the gay community of SA, they made alot of noise and now look, they got their legislation and are now free to marry...

This post has been edited by Shi-shi: Dec 21 2006, 10:55 PM

Rapists dicks and balls should be cut off, and be made to parade in a public place like Beyers Naude square naked. But, as many people said before, only in CLEAR CUT cases.

The thing with the death penalty is that in most "civilized" countries, the crim is kept in jail for about 10 years before he is put to death.

I saw a documentry once about brittish prisoners in a Thai prison for smuggling drugs. In Thai prisons, prisoners have to BUY food. If they dont have relatives to bring them money or food, they have to do odd jobs for other prisoners for money. With the overcrowded jails in this country, it probably wont work, it would only increase prisoner on prisoner violence. But its a nice idea.

The death penalty might not be a deterrent, but at least it would free up some space in our jails.

Another thing, I think that anyone KNOWINGLY buying stolen goods, should also be found guilty for the crimes committed when the theft occurs. If a highjacker kills someone, and you buy the vehicle knowing that it is stolen (whether or not you know that the original owners was murdered is inconsequential), you should also receive 100% of the punishment for that murder.

All this hippie crap about rehabilitation should also stop. Rehabilitation is a bonus. Try to do it, yes, but the primary function is punishment.
Every now and then you hear about criminals paying their debt to society. Paying it how? By eating the food we buy for them? Whoopdi-doo!

Yeah, it would be better if these criminal scum actually had to WORK for their food in prison.

Alternatively, if there is to be no death penalty, how about sending the scum off to some remote island (and I mean REMOTE), and just have them kill off each other in order to survive?


Can't say that I fully agree there (about being tried for the murder even though you only bought the stolen vehilce), but I agree that you should also be charged for knowingly buying the stolen goods. But really, how often do people unknowingly buy stolen goods, seeing as how they are so much cheaper than the retailers.

Yet they have money to keep changing street names, airports, arms deal...

Maybe I wouldn't suggest death penalty... but what about we find a uninhabitable island and throw these son of a biches on that island and they must fend for themselves.... that'll save us on taxes

I agree!!!!! The death penalty should be re-instated!!!

Crime is for the biggest problem in this country. The world and indeed our government seems so fixated on HIV/AIDS that they dont see what really hapenning on the streets.
I'm very optimistic and love South Africa. I can't imagine myself living anywhere else in the world, but crime has become such a major issue for me that I am seriously considering leaving.
I know that this sentiment is shared by thousands of my fellow countrymen.

To resolve this the high crime rate, firstly, effective deterrents need to be put in place.
Police need to be better trained and better equipped to deal with criminals. They also need to be be better paid. More law-enforcement officers would also be needed.
Corrupt officials, a la Zuma and his cronies to name a few need to removed from office forever and replaced with people with proven track records.
Organisations like the Scorpions need to be given wider mandates. (The scorpions definitely get my approval)
The legal system ned to be streamlined to make prosecution faster and more efficient. Relevant deptmental budgets need to be increased.
Prison warders need to be paid more to dis-courage illiciting of bribery.
The death penalty need to come back and executions need to be shown LIVE on TV for all to see. Criminals need to understand where their reigns of terror will end......Death by firing squad (Nothing would bring me greater pleasure, than to be one of the men pulling the trigger!!)

Very few prisoners become truly rehabilitated, the vast majority of these fuckers are career criminals.